I’ve noticed that lately, rebuttal-worthy posts on Evangelical blogs are a lot harder to find. Thus, in some ways, things like this are a relief to find… though I’m not sure I’d consider it “worthy.” It’s by good ‘ol BK of Christian CADRE about the problem that, according to some extremely influential passages in Christian scripture, all non-Christians are going to roast in the flames of Hell for all of eternity.
BK starts off by saying that atheists never make the list of non-Christians who don’t deserve to go to hell. I should point out that there’s a sense in which that isn’t true–Hitler’s victims are usually mentioned in these discussions (though BK avoids doing so)–and the Nazis didn’t care about actual religious beliefs, I’m guessing that’s hundreds of thousands of atheists implicitly mentioned in the usual discussions.
But never mind the whole thing about God doing worse things to Hitler’s victims than Hitler did. A few people who’ve commented on this have made things a bit more personal. Here’s Charles Darwin:
I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be everlasting punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.
I could list, among others, my girlfriend, a couple of previous girlfriends, two of my three roommates, the aunt and uncle I just spent the last weekend with, and myself. A great deal of fundie rhetoric around Hell plays on normal people being to modest to say they don’t deserve to go there, but no one should be afraid to say this any more than they should be afraid to tell a fundie “I don’t deserve to be shot for not following your religion.” But for the incurably modest, I recommend Darwin’s strategy the next time you have to discuss Hell with a fundie.
BK’s entire response to this problem is to whine about an “entitlement mentality”–among the examples of which BK mentions the fact that people think we are entitled to freedom of speech. BK responds that, no, these things have to be paid for, people have worked and fought for free speech. What this fails to see is that right and wrong exist even when nobody can defend them. People have a right to free speech, and this means that if a tyrannical government is shooting dissidents, this is wrong even if there’s no George Washington to lead a revolution against the government.
Side note 1: I’m beginning to suspect that the sneering phrase “entitlement mentality” could be used to trash any claims to human rights or human dignity.
Side note 2: The tone fundamentalists take with people who object to their doctrines gets pretty weird at times. Have racists ever taken this tone with people who object to lynchincs, or antisemites ever taken this tone with people who object to the Holocaust?
I’m having a discussion with BK’s friend Metacrock over at his blog where he presents a different point of view. According to Metacrock there is no Hell; it’s just a metaphor for the suffering we experience if we don’t seek God. The natural consequence of this failure to seek God, he says, is the destruction of our otherwise everlasting soul after physical death.
This is supposed to be a more loving, humane version of Christian doctrine but it seems to me to be every bit as reprehensible as BK’s more fundamentalist version.
I came to comment here after finding a link to you on the Freedom Blog. Apparently Metacrock is a fan of theirs, and linked approvingly to their post about you on his atheistwatch blog. Thought you’d like you know…;-)
Ah, Hallq. Thanks for the link. As usual, you show that you understand nothing of what I am saying or even basic Christian theology. You don’t understand “entitlement mentality” becaues you probably have one and trust me when I say that it has nothing to do with trashing “any claims to human rights or human dignity.” The tone is actually intended to be humorous, and several people who have communicated with me think that it is so. But that’s okay, you keep me as entertained as I apparently keep you.
Oh, and by the way, what is your answer to the question that I asked, i.e., Are you saying that Adolph Hitler should be in heaven?
Do you think Jesus should be in Heaven?
Of course Hitler should be in Heaven. He is a better person than your Jesus, who is going to have Jews in Hell forever.
If you think what Hitler did to the Jews is bad, just wait until Jesus gets through with them.
Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
(Copyright ,Der Sturmer, 1936)
But at least BK thinks I am less deserving of Hell than Hitler.
So I am not going to Hell. Ask BK.
Ah, Steven. So good to hear from you. As usual, there is no reason to respond to what you say. It stands on its own as a monument to your own warped thinking process.
So no answers from BK to people who quote the alleged words of his Lord and Saviour.
1-0 to the atheists again!
‘Quoting Jesus’ = ‘Warped thinking process’ in the mind of BK
The main force of the atheist’s objection centers not our entitlement to be in heaven, but our entitlement not to be in hell. Additionally, a criterion for letting someone into heaven can be reprehensible even if no one’s entitled to go to heaven. No one may be entitled to a disease vaccine I patent, but it’d be pretty horrible of me if I chose to only let white people have access to it.
P.S. You come off as one of the more unpleasant apologists, BK. Consider a change of tactics?
Ah, BK.
I sympathize with BK. Defending the absurd is tough work.
‘“entitlement mentality” – Aborted babies do not deserve to go to Heaven. They have no entitlement.
See, it is easy to defend the absurd.
BK–What don’t I understand about Christian theology? I’ve spent a fair amount of time reading books by Christian theologians, and I think you’ll find I know your theology quite well; I just don’t find any of the rationalizations for your sick doctrines convincing.
As for the Hitler example–it’s completely irrelevant, but for what it’s worth, while the idea of torturing mass-murderers eternally may be tempting, I think most civilized people realize that torturing people when it won’t prevent any future evils (i.e. ignoring ticking time bomb scenarios) is indefensible. But even if I were a much bigger fan of retributive justice than I am, I think I would have a hard time seeing how eternal damnation makes any sense–in Hitler’s case, I would (if I were a retributivist) think a long but finite sentence would be enough.